Jessie Sams: So we are recording.
Jessie Sams: We are live, welcome to link time chat episode.
Jessie Sams: 1716.
David Peterson: really what which one is it.
Jessie Sams: All of the above.
Jessie Sams: I really thought I was ready, this time.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: But i'm checking now because i'm really curious it's 16 okay.
David Peterson: Okay.
David Peterson: So welcome again So why did you lead with 17.
David Peterson: that's just not what it was.
Jessie Sams: Because.
Jessie Sams: Sometimes.
Jessie Sams: You are looking forward to the future, and you know, sometimes when you look forward to the future, you.
Jessie Sams: You jump right forward.
David Peterson: yeah I totally.
David Peterson: so doing.
Jessie Sams: Well, we are hopefully introducing tone into our language today.
David Peterson: Right, because the whole point was to do a tone language right.
Jessie Sams: Right and every time I think we're going to make it.
Jessie Sams: We don't um, so this is episode what the first the third episode, I will say.
David Peterson: yeah.
David Peterson: I almost.
Jessie Sams: said three, but this is the third episode.
Jessie Sams: Where we're working on this language, and of course don't know name, because we literally haven't even made it through all the sound rules and everything.
Jessie Sams: And when I can go ahead and share my screen.
David Peterson: yeah that's probably a good idea, so that people can see what's going on.
David Peterson: So this is our third shot at.
David Peterson: trying to get tone into this thing.
Jessie Sams: Yes, it is.
and
Jessie Sams: Oh good one.
David Peterson: I need to sorry I need to minimize my screen, so that I can actually work on this.
Jessie Sams: Just.
David Peterson: made everything go full screen okay okay there we go i'm all set.
David Peterson: Excellent ready so cool.
Jessie Sams: I I am ready.
Jessie Sams: cool um.
Jessie Sams: So let's.
David Peterson: Get back in.
Jessie Sams: I know I know and I almost like I was going to do a review session.
Jessie Sams: But then I was like you know what for people listening along it's been a month, so you need a refresh session too so.
Jessie Sams: We hope.
Jessie Sams: To do some refreshing here.
Jessie Sams: So our current continental inventory.
Jessie Sams: We do the objective series for the voiceless stops, and so we have those we wiped out all of our up lawyers and we do have some Africa what's.
Jessie Sams: At the you know i'll be alert palatable and even vilar Africa what's other than that.
Jessie Sams: we've been right yeah I know and you weren't super stoked about the the chaos in gc being you.
Jessie Sams: Know phr and I totally.
David Peterson: wasn't yeah I get it to like it's just doesn't make any sense but that's alright it's alright it's fine.
Jessie Sams: But it's there because it's the only onset consonant cluster that's allowed like it.
Jessie Sams: And so, anyway, instead of like trying to write a rule for it, I could it in the IPA chart.
Jessie Sams: And we have a very healthy system of vowels.
Jessie Sams: we've you know.
David Peterson: Had.
Jessie Sams: fun we actually have like an unbounded front valid the MID level so that's exciting.
Jessie Sams: But we of course killed the central bells because.
David Peterson: Because there's.
David Peterson: there's no purpose to them and, yes, we do have an.
David Peterson: unbounded Val at the MID level but usually that's not usually it's not super exciting because I mean most of the time you expect an unbranded front Pal.
Jessie Sams: And that love oh my gosh around it from hell hole we yeah.
David Peterson: Thank you yeah that's.
David Peterson: yeah.
Jessie Sams: That was an unfortunate I almost said typo but.
Jessie Sams: came out of my mouth.
David Peterson: was a speaker Oh, not a typo.
In team.
David Peterson: Coming out of your paycheck.
Jessie Sams: Speaking of when was the last time you remember to pay me, I mean if i'm going to get a paycheck if you're gonna if you're going to threaten to take it out.
David Peterson: i'm pretty sure I paid you, the last time you earned it.
Jessie Sams: 2019.
Jessie Sams: So if you go to page 12 and that's, of course, where I am on the screen share but you're going to need to get there, and your documents you.
Jessie Sams: Excellent this is.
Jessie Sams: This is where we've been working on these forms.
Jessie Sams: And I don't believe yeah so we have seven rules that we have actually created we've applied them to our list of routes that we're moving through.
Jessie Sams: You know, showing how they they evolved and now we need.
Jessie Sams: To actually incorporate tone and so last time we ended with for suggestions, including losing kowtows specifically stops, which leaves a high tone in its wake.
Jessie Sams: And then another idea is you know same idea but it's a stop koto would leave a high tone, whereas a liquid or nasal kota when it's lost would leave a low tone, but then we also.
Jessie Sams: had said, maybe that coda would not actually be lost, but it would create a low tone and then objective onset leaves a tonal trace, maybe, but not sure what tone and a mixture of stress and quota loss is the fourth option, so we left it there last time.
Jessie Sams: Are you leaning in any particular direction as we start.
here.
David Peterson: i'm leaning against the top option, because we have so few.
David Peterson: Stop coda's.
Jessie Sams: Right and then we would like literally only have a couple words with.
David Peterson: Those words.
David Peterson: wouldn't make any sense.
David Peterson: So.
David Peterson: Cheese like.
David Peterson: it's actually really tough, I mean maybe this is just not a representative sample.
Jessie Sams: I mean it is.
Jessie Sams: It is just a random list of routes that really my goal in creating them was to make sure we had targeted every sound in the inventory and so.
Jessie Sams: And and tried to like.
Jessie Sams: You know, get some combinations going that could be interesting, so no it's not necessarily.
David Peterson: yeah I did forget, though of course I can.
David Peterson: i'm debuting my new glasses.
David Peterson: Because I got new glasses and I was doubly supposed to be wearing them because.
David Peterson: i'm very tired today, and so I like to wear glasses, to make it like you know cover my eyes a little bit so.
Jessie Sams: and
David Peterson: So we are.
Jessie Sams: Leaving now.
Jessie Sams: I think they look great.
Jessie Sams: Alright, so.
David Peterson: Good choice, what is the Thank you that's what I was hoping for okay.
David Peterson: hmm.
So.
Jessie Sams: So i'm.
Jessie Sams: going to strike through the top option.
Jessie Sams: Okay, because we considered it.
Jessie Sams: So that is something to think about, by the way, if you are creating a tonal language as you start thinking about where the tones come from.
Jessie Sams: definitely also be thinking about how much of your inventory that would affect, because that would be silly to only have a few words with high tones and nowhere else they need to be you know more distributed.
Right.
Jessie Sams: And so.
David Peterson: So.
David Peterson: I.
David Peterson: yeah Okay, so I see what okay it's.
David Peterson: Essentially, the second option is the same as the first only we're having the other code is to do stuff too.
David Peterson: Right and.
David Peterson: And so i'm thinking that i'm leaning towards the fourth option, because I don't know what dejected should do to tunnel traces to you have any idea.
Jessie Sams: If they love to trace, and this is just like for some reason it's not an actual connection it's just like if they left a trace, it would be a high tone.
Jessie Sams: And it's like I say that as if it's so natural and obvious but I mean there's nothing about it that suggests that it has to be high, it just in my head i'm like ooh objective hi.
yeah.
David Peterson: I think that.
David Peterson: I think that we're going to have to go to the.
David Peterson: What you call it, I think we're gonna have to go to the Internet, to see if there's any association between.
David Peterson: watching the call it objectives and tone, because I think that there is, but I don't know what it will be so let's do that also need to give me just one second nobody.
Jessie Sams: Nobody go anywhere.
David Peterson: Nobody looking at my hands.
Jessie Sams: yeah well he's moving around back there I am doing what you do when you need to do research right just start typing in Google.
Jessie Sams: So effective objections.
Jessie Sams: Sometimes it takes a while to figure out.
Jessie Sams: figure out the right search terms um.
Jessie Sams: Oh there's there are.
Jessie Sams: Some good articles on the preceding valuation.
Jessie Sams: But that doesn't help.
Jessie Sams: When we're looking at objectives as onsets.
Jessie Sams: ooh I think I found it, I think.
Jessie Sams: What we need.
Jessie Sams: So there's a whole.
Jessie Sams: Article here on toner genesis so actually I say it right now i'm.
Jessie Sams: and
Jessie Sams: i'm gonna i'm definitely going to be sharing this.
Jessie Sams: As a PDF attachment whenever I post the podcast because it walks through a lot of different.
Jessie Sams: Languages and things, and this is for actually the Oxford research encyclopedia of linguistics and so.
Jessie Sams: And so that's good.
Jessie Sams: So there's Tony genesis by loss of voicing contrast and initial consonants.
Jessie Sams: I lost the final the NGO consonants.
Jessie Sams: salient continental effects on tone is on page 10 I feel like that's going to be my.
David Peterson: This sounds like a really like really useful resource so very, very good fine Thank you.
Jessie Sams: Definitely that's magic of Google, you know.
Jessie Sams: i'm.
Jessie Sams: I OK so.
Jessie Sams: Alright, so there are effects that are referred to as pitch skip and pitch dip for raising and lowering.
Jessie Sams: The the zero format of the bow that follows it.
Jessie Sams: voiced consonants tend to cause lower.
Jessie Sams: performance at the onset of the following valdan unvoiced consonants.
Jessie Sams: And all of our objectives are of course unvoiced so that to me.
Jessie Sams: yeah just that high tone is good.
David Peterson: Globalization would change anything.
Jessie Sams: Justice second.
Jessie Sams: So there's also impulses and so on rents.
Jessie Sams: rise, so the format after an impulsive in a son or it rises and then it falls after an obstacle.
Jessie Sams: In places and objectives involved changes and larynx height and glottal constriction in might therefore be expected to have effects on f0.
Jessie Sams: Variable creek enos.
Jessie Sams: Raising have a following Val has been noted, to occur with vilar objectives and Hausa voiceless impulses tend to raise the fundamental frequency at the beginning of a following fell slightly more than policed employees, employers do.
Jessie Sams: So that oh wow they're called the presser consonants when they lowered them so that's kind of a cool term to know.
Jessie Sams: And so.
Jessie Sams: Based on what i'm getting this without having read the entire article just doing my little skipping jump through it, based on what i'm seeing here.
Jessie Sams: I think high tone is the the best bet.
David Peterson: So basically they're not going to do anything different from plain voiceless stops.
Jessie Sams: right balance for me and.
Jessie Sams: I really should have also I realized probably sent this to you because I in my head i'm sharing my screen and so Therefore, you can see everything i'm doing, but my screen that is being shared is of course the pages documents, so that.
David Peterson: yeah I mean you can do a reshare and just.
David Peterson: and share the document itself.
Jessie Sams: I sure can.
Jessie Sams: And then, of course, that doesn't help you as much because i'm like literally down on page 11.
Jessie Sams: well.
Jessie Sams: i'm.
Jessie Sams: And so you'll have to let me know if you want me to scroll to other locations in it, but.
Jessie Sams: phonetically it's striking that all the depressed.
Jessie Sams: So.
Jessie Sams: I mean.
Jessie Sams: Let me go back up to the paragraph just a second where this is.
David Peterson: Why did we.
David Peterson: goods are they treat it sounds like they're treating objectives and explosives, as the same.
Jessie Sams: It.
Jessie Sams: I was kind of reading at the same after this I honestly don't think objectives get mentioned very much more, because everything really turns to a discussion and my go and download that so don't forget everything really moves on to a discussion on impulses so.
Jessie Sams: So.
Jessie Sams: There this chart It shows.
Jessie Sams: correspondence illustrating the difference between high mark and low Mart languages.
David Peterson: she's look at this like see a proto proto DNA right, you have.
David Peterson: chipper jaan and then quick teen and hooper and we literally have three different tones we have low high and mid.
David Peterson: Oh, but they're opposite.
Jessie Sams: Right.
David Peterson: got it so weird.
David Peterson: There they're opposite high and low and then they both have mid and maybe mid or just no tone in hope hope I might be might just be a language that doesn't have town.
Jessie Sams: In that may.
Jessie Sams: Be it.
Jessie Sams: Oh, it is right above it hope or oba exemplifies the situation of non tonal languages.
Jessie Sams: And so.
Jessie Sams: I mean that, but this is also in objective consonant as a coda.
Jessie Sams: We were looking at them as onsets and so apparent obviously as a cota as a cota if.
Jessie Sams: You go either way.
David Peterson: Obviously, like are you are you seeing this is unbelievable, this is the second time i've heard of this phenomena.
David Peterson: they're suggesting that there were two different glottal stops.
David Peterson: and
David Peterson: i've heard about this before in 10 minutes, where the the person who's done all the work on 10 minutes insists that there are two different glottal stops and that they somehow sound different.
Jessie Sams: You know and i'm you know how how good.
Jessie Sams: I am with being able to distinguish all the finer details of every sound.
Jessie Sams: it's so.
Jessie Sams: yeah it's.
Jessie Sams: That is interesting though that.
Jessie Sams: And in the article it suggests that.
Jessie Sams: lapse into creaky voice for that kind of glottal stop tends to be associated with relaxation and that's the lower pitch.
Jessie Sams: And then the ones that are influence that would have a rising tide, there would be potentially a presence of a falling or breathy tone like an earlier final ah.
Jessie Sams: So.
Jessie Sams: So there's that i'm going to go to the next match Oh, and then this is the only these are the only other two times objective.
Jessie Sams: continents are specifically mentioned in the article was the paragraph that I had already walked through and then that chart that we just looked at.
Jessie Sams: With those languages.
David Peterson: This data is awful I do have a suggestion, though, so.
David Peterson: This is what I think that we should do so okay so looking at the data or like the stuff that we have, I think it should be, just like we'll get.
David Peterson: we'll get high tone after voiceless stops whether they're objective or not low tone after voice stops at the beginning for neutral things let's just do.
David Peterson: high tone if they are stressed so we're going to have stressed, low tone if they're not and then we will have an override when we have word final voiceless stops they'll override whatever it is, they will disappear and leave height.
David Peterson: That is my recommendation, what do you think.
Jessie Sams: I like it, and I think we need to type it up so that way you know.
David Peterson: We remember them.
Jessie Sams: So i'm going to go back to the pages document.
Jessie Sams: on the screen so.
Jessie Sams: That we can actually type it and I when I mean at this point I would actually we would want it.
Jessie Sams: As one of the number of rules right or do we want to create.
David Peterson: Probably several.
Jessie Sams: Several.
Jessie Sams: Steps of.
Jessie Sams: application.
David Peterson: yeah okay so.
David Peterson: How do we know about having yes.
Jessie Sams: Oh, I was gonna say The other thing is like are we, assuming that the Tongue gets applied after the seven or we.
Jessie Sams: Like in terms of the ordering of the rules would they.
David Peterson: I suppose that something that we can consider.
David Peterson: yeah that's something that we can talk about.
David Peterson: And are we okay with words like sweat are just sweat I guess it would be because we're losing the glottal stop so sweat we okay with that.
Jessie Sams: I mean I am.
David Peterson: I mean, I guess yeah Why did I even ask you.
Jessie Sams: Because you know.
Jessie Sams: You, the ash.
David Peterson: yeah no but I meant more like it's just it's a it's a monosyllabic word that ends in at swell hi TIM.
Jessie Sams: What do you think about it, are you okay.
David Peterson: i'm okay with it slap I mean.
David Peterson: I keep saying it's just so funny to me sweat.
Jessie Sams: But that makes it a good word right like the more that you could be excited.
David Peterson: it's like you're so excited about swag you don't say the G.
Jessie Sams: And you put it in a high tone.
David Peterson: it's a it's an abbreviation it's a shortening of swag because swag is too long and got some swear.
Jessie Sams: I think I think that's I think it's perfect.
David Peterson: Okay, very, very, very, very good okay so.
David Peterson: All right, let's try to formalize this then.
David Peterson: Okay.
David Peterson: This is where it's going to be relevant, where this rule is placed, because if we have.
David Peterson: If we have voiced consonants leaving a load up hold on, let me go back to our proto forums.
David Peterson: We did not have voiced stops.
David Peterson: In the parade.
Jessie Sams: Right.
Jessie Sams: Those okay came later.
David Peterson: Okay, so, then that means that we should put these tone rules at the very least after Rule three.
Jessie Sams: Right.
David Peterson: So, then, we have some voice stops.
David Peterson: That we are are these crooked.
Jessie Sams: I swear to God, I thought this the first time that I put these on when I was at the at the the the optometry place.
David Peterson: Are they crooked or my glasses crooked.
Jessie Sams: At this very moment no.
David Peterson: Yes, no you're sure.
Jessie Sams: I mean your eyebrows look.
Jessie Sams: Even lead plate well now.
Jessie Sams: Now they look even better.
Jessie Sams: David is doing weird things.
David Peterson: Did you know I can do that, did you know i'm a person that can do that.
Jessie Sams: I did not know that you could do it or do it that well that's actually quite impressive i'm.
Jessie Sams: Just having fun looking at yourself raising your eyebrows.
Jessie Sams: yeah raise.
David Peterson: An eyebrow kid.
Jessie Sams: little bit, and this is this really goes well with with tone.
David Peterson: And you do it, can you do a high tone IRA.
David Peterson: A high low melody now like you can't not like you can and, like, I have to think about it, and then I have to like really lower the other I brought like hang on a second hang on a SEC.
David Peterson: hang up hang on a second.
David Peterson: You.
David Peterson: say something again.
Jessie Sams: I am trying to do a podcast here, and you are.
David Peterson: Sorry okay.
So.
David Peterson: What what had happened was this no I.
David Peterson: The pest control company called and it put the ringing into my air pods and it knocked you off of the so for a very, very brief moment but then I guess it doesn't matter because you're recording the audio on your end doesn't it.
Jessie Sams: yeah yeah.
David Peterson: That I shouldn't have said doesn't it there huh.
David Peterson: you're recording the audio on your end.
David Peterson: aren't you.
Jessie Sams: You are on fire today.
David Peterson: Okay.
David Peterson: So guys, we have one of my favorite jokes on the Simpsons confused, would we.
Jessie Sams: So.
Jessie Sams: After Rule three.
Jessie Sams: Minimum lead.
Jessie Sams: That gives us.
Jessie Sams: Post nasal voicing so we have something going on there and post nasal voicing, though, also means that.
Jessie Sams: we're never going to have a coda that is a voice nasal our voice stock which is fine that doesn't mean like if we want voicing to affect that it needs to be forward.
David Peterson: But we could leave that you know if we're.
David Peterson: i've just kind of tacitly assume in my head without saying anything out loud and without writing anything in this document that we were doing high low do you want to do high mid low.
Jessie Sams: We actually had already made that decision and we wrote it.
David Peterson: We did.
David Peterson: yeah I did.
Jessie Sams: Okay yeah.
Jessie Sams: And i'm going to pull that up to so that way people can see it whenever they're watching the YouTube version, so we have high low and falling rising tones are not permitted.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: So that gives us more things to play with too because.
Jessie Sams: You know, like.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: To get more variety and the tones.
So.
David Peterson: Okay, so here here are the thoughts that i'm thinking right at this moment, if we were going to do, the thing that I just thought it didn't say.
David Peterson: And how to stress system where it was just a simple stress system where it was like you know penultimate evidence and Val also bit of it ends with a consonant.
David Peterson: And then we were going to say that voice dakota's leave a low tone trace, it would mean that every single word that ended an l or n would end on a falling tone like it would it would just have folly tone they're not me.
David Peterson: Okay, and i'm sure if I wanted to.
David Peterson: I don't know what your thoughts are.
Jessie Sams: Just depends on how often we would have word final ends and else.
Jessie Sams: Right now.
David Peterson: L and m.
Jessie Sams: Great.
David Peterson: Amazon man see.
David Peterson: Archer joke.
Jessie Sams: over my head.
Jessie Sams: Right now, that would be that would be.
yeah.
Jessie Sams: That would be four of our current routes.
David Peterson: yeah.
Jessie Sams: So I mean it's not like it's going to be if.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: Like for me, I would be okay, with it, but.
David Peterson: Okay, if we started counting things, though.
David Peterson: yeah if if we started counting things and we started like doing this like.
David Peterson: what's the thing.
Jessie Sams: what's a like.
Jessie Sams: It guy like me like really.
David Peterson: The data like tally marks yeah or like.
David Peterson: Like tally marks or.
David Peterson: You know, like when you're stacking up orphans and you see how, who has the most orphans.
David Peterson: That type of a thing, like a like a T chart like.
David Peterson: A pro and con list right.
Jessie Sams: Oh okay.
David Peterson: Yes, Sir, and it's like it's like we we just add up how many votes this syllable has for low and how many votes it has for high and it's like if it has more votes for high it's high if it has more votes for low it's low if it's even then it's falling hmm.
Jessie Sams: Okay gotcha yeah.
David Peterson: OK OK.
Jessie Sams: And now I get what you're saying, although stepping up orphans i'm still a little bit lost on.
David Peterson: Okay, so there.
David Peterson: that's.
Jessie Sams: that's quite a right, I get what you're saying and i'm on board with that and yeah that would create.
Jessie Sams: A lot of variety and.
David Peterson: Just to just to catch everybody up there is this amazing amazing sketch by the State state is one of my favorite sketch comedy groups of all time and they have this game show sketch, where.
David Peterson: it's like they that you come in, after the end of round one, and you know the host is very bubbly and excited and then you see the two contestants who are very disturbed.
David Peterson: And he says, like all right at the end of brown one let's you know check in with Sam and Judy so Sam you have for orphans and Judy is right behind you, with three.
David Peterson: And it says um I was given to understand when we signed up for this that we would be winning things like money or prizes it's like it's like no you're.
David Peterson: you're playing for orphans it's, like the other woman's because it's like I can't like I don't I don't object to.
David Peterson: You know orphans wanting to be adopted, but it's like I live in a one bedroom studio I can't have three orphans and.
Jessie Sams: Can you have a one bedroom studio isn't a studio by nature zero bedrooms.
David Peterson: Oh you're just really on me right now aren't you Okay, excuse me, I live in a studio loft or something I don't know what the exact job was anyway, so that may go on to like start you know, asking questions.
David Peterson: Like.
David Peterson: say.
David Peterson: Like the final question was like.
David Peterson: Like name a type of boat.
David Peterson: And soon the guy says.
David Peterson: wooden.
David Peterson: wooden that's where it is like and how many orphans, are you going to risk.
David Peterson: All of them.
David Peterson: You.
David Peterson: want says, I named my type of boat this blue.
David Peterson: And uh.
David Peterson: huh judges, can we accept that it's like a boat both can be blue boats can be blue you when.
David Peterson: Wait that's not fair boats can be made out of wood to is hey God good boats boats can be made out of wood.
David Peterson: You doubled your orphans.
David Peterson: Fantastic sketch anyway so.
Jessie Sams: What are we doing back to town.
Oh.
Jessie Sams: yeah.
Jessie Sams: gotcha and.
Jessie Sams: Then we're going going to essentially have several different things that will influence tone, leaving certain tonal traces and we're going to yeah like basically count them up and see what what stacks out on top.
David Peterson: Okay let's do it alright so voiceless see voiceless stop are voiceless anything, because I think voiceless frank, it is are actually depressives aren't they.
Jessie Sams: i'm.
David Peterson: Sorry voiceless frickin is I think frickin have no.
David Peterson: No, no.
David Peterson: I know the drinking.
sodas.
Jessie Sams: yeah.
Jessie Sams: I think frickin lives and stops tend to both be depresses.
Jessie Sams: By.
Jessie Sams: weight that the voiceless voiceless.
Jessie Sams: Is a razor.
David Peterson: OK OK OK OK so got it alright, so let me write this down.
David Peterson: voiceless consonants plus one hi.
David Peterson: voiced consonants onsets, this is what I should be doing.
One sets.
David Peterson: Last one low okay so then.
David Peterson: Do we want to say that with nasal and liquids too.
David Peterson: yeah let's do it let's do it let's let's let's have fun with this let's just go nuts and just do is, we will.
David Peterson: Stress.
David Peterson: Last one hi.
Jessie Sams: There is actually an interesting paragraph as you're typing.
Jessie Sams: Guy talks about that in most cases they don't actually think it's voice vs voiceless that causes the difference in terms of whether it's an oppressor razor.
Jessie Sams: That it's more about how its produced and so they're attributing four languages, where it appears that there's a voice consonants do this voiceless consonants do this difference that what's actually happening is differences in sub glottal pressure and longitudinal vocal folds tension.
Jessie Sams: Because the voices consonants have greater attention and that's actually what leaves the higher tongue.
David Peterson: Okay, then.
Jessie Sams: Let us just kind of go.
David Peterson: yeah let's revisit our inventory here.
David Peterson: Okay, so we only have voiceless promo consonants so we don't have Z or as we don't have either of those actually even in the modern language.
Jessie Sams: yeah we only have.
David Peterson: We only have voice stops and Africans okay.
David Peterson: got it alright alright so then.
David Peterson: I guess it's really up to us, then how tense, do you want your SS and ash and do you want them to have the same level of tension or different levels of tension and let's see how we can try to simulate this i'm trying to think of like a really good way to.
David Peterson: demonstrate how this might work.
David Peterson: So it's like.
David Peterson: Okay, so there's different types of essence right there's like you know there's a typical versus not a typical and then there's that hissy one versus the non hissy one.
David Peterson: And then there's for in july's so it's like the most English speakers they didn't have the non typical s so.
David Peterson: soda as opposed to soda.
Jessie Sams: Okay.
David Peterson: Did you did I actually do that correctly like did you hear a difference.
Jessie Sams: I think I did, but maybe i'm hearing the difference because I was looking for one.
David Peterson: God I hope so, so I mean no, no, I mean I hope there was a difference, not that you heard something that wasn't there.
David Peterson: soda soda.
Jessie Sams: yeah that was yeah.
David Peterson: yeah basically a ton tip is a little bit forward and some languages have that whereas like an English it's more of.
David Peterson: Its more just something that certain speakers do, which is just something that I take note of and find interesting.
David Peterson: And okay so interesting with my Lingus hat on I hate to admit this, but I do find it a little annoying.
David Peterson: I don't know why, and I shouldn't say that it's fine it's fine whatever look my auntie Lisa does it and so like I just always notice it, you know.
David Peterson: I love.
David Peterson: I love my auntie Lisa she is a she is a fine.
David Peterson: Fine woman, but she will say you know.
David Peterson: David to us soda it's just like.
Jessie Sams: And do you decline the the soda because it's not soda.
David Peterson: yeah I mean I I would, but I just decline in any way because seriously who wants to drink something carbonated it's awful.
awful experience.
Jessie Sams: i'm.
David Peterson: Like Why would you so okay so, but then there's also like fertilized as like in Arabic and sadiq is i'm sorry I did a little bit off Saudi Saudi.
David Peterson: Saudi Saudi Saudi I have a trouble some trouble with that one, but the word for friend in Arabic has a fringe lightest s for ritualized D and then Q so it's a very it's a very difficult word to say for.
David Peterson: Westerners sada sada sada but it's like basically the back of your tongue is right, where the ah sound should be while you're doing the S so saw versus saw saw saw saw saw and I know that it produces a difference in the vowel as well that's.
David Peterson: Honestly that's that's the main way I can hear and produce the difference in Arabic was just focusing on the bow.
David Peterson: But.
David Peterson: I feel like that one has a lot of tension, and so this one would be more.
David Peterson: likely to leave a high to trace.
David Peterson: Then.
David Peterson: Just regular that feels very lacks to me very loose.
David Peterson: and atypical.
David Peterson: little bit more tense.
David Peterson: So i'd say for ritual or atypical little bit more tense than the than the other, which would be a little bit lacks so I don't know Bearing that in mind what type of S, do you think that we should have for our language.
Jessie Sams: um.
Jessie Sams: I mean.
Jessie Sams: Obviously, since.
Jessie Sams: you're not a fan of the April, we need to do a.
Jessie Sams: I honestly.
Jessie Sams: i'm not feeling a major Opinion one way or the other.
David Peterson: it's too bad.
David Peterson: um.
David Peterson: let's see.
Jessie Sams: Are you are you leaning one direction.
David Peterson: or tell me about the first time I saw this this commercial with one direction and drew brees.
David Peterson: And it was all like a thing about how they were both big and like it was clearly like like these are like two things that are really big from separate you know worlds.
David Peterson: And i'm like there's this part where they're like yeah we have one direction i'm like who the hell is that, like because it's like it'd be one thing if it was like you know.
David Peterson: It was like they were being presented as some established super popular thing and I had never heard of them.
David Peterson: It was ridiculous it was like if that commercial it happened, two years later I would have accepted it.
Jessie Sams: Instead, not bad.
David Peterson: But not that I was just.
David Peterson: Reading.
Jessie Sams: Do you think though it's really just your age group that your age group, not mine.
Jessie Sams: That didn't know them at the time.
David Peterson: yeah that's true as 40 year olds we you know people in their 40s we.
David Peterson: Mainly just watch daytime TV and.
David Peterson: Talk about the weather and sedans.
David Peterson: I mean you, while people in your 30s you just.
David Peterson: Listen to.
David Peterson: We.
Jessie Sams: wonder ready know about one direction yeah we knew about it, before.
David Peterson: And you're bts and you're 21 pilots and all that.
Jessie Sams: Pilots it's good, though.
David Peterson: Okay, so.
David Peterson: No, no.
David Peterson: Okay okay there okay so here's what's happened like three separate times and we can actually go into my exam to verify this.
David Peterson: I had been tricked in dishes I mean a song on the radio that ends up being by 21 pilots everyone every time i'm like How dare you you got me again it's the same song every time it's like ride or something or something like that.
David Peterson: I don't.
Jessie Sams: I don't know I really stressed out and he then are my top two songs I know by them so.
David Peterson: Maybe it may be stressed out.
Jessie Sams: But I do think there is one that's something like car.
Jessie Sams: Something it may be like car right or something.
David Peterson: yeah something like that.
Jessie Sams: But neither here nor there what's.
Jessie Sams: More important.
Jessie Sams: Is.
David Peterson: own thing Okay, so I.
David Peterson: Did.
David Peterson: The town, I wrote up some rules for the for the tone thing, so I have some potential things there to allow us to tally up.
David Peterson: and
David Peterson: So what i've got right now is.
David Peterson: Wait that's right we didn't okay how about this.
David Peterson: sibilant plus one low okay voiceless continents are going to give us plus one high voice consonant these are on sets are gonna give us plus one most sibilant sibilant on sets.
David Peterson: are going to give us plus one low stress is going to give us plus one high unstressed is going to give us plus one low voiceless stop quotas are you going to give us plus one high.
David Peterson: And disappear.
David Peterson: So that is what i've got at the moment, and the question is, do we want to add anything else to this list.
Jessie Sams: Right, and so we had did we want to specifically have something for objectives, separate from voiceless consonants okay.
David Peterson: No basically that's what we that's what we determined with with all the papers are like nope objectives aren't going to be different they're just going to.
David Peterson: You know, leave.
David Peterson: You know heighten the, just like the other voiceless consonants so.
Jessie Sams: Right in.
David Peterson: terms of tone like you know top will be the same as apple.
Jessie Sams: And, did you want to do anything with other kowtows.
David Peterson: Oh rate with a stock curtis plus one hi voiced kowtows plus one low.
Jessie Sams: momentarily my.
Jessie Sams: my eyes weren't separating the plus one ah and disappear, and it was just like plus one hand disappear.
David Peterson: ooh.
David Peterson: I like that idea here check this out and get a magic trick you ready.
Jessie Sams: Your hand is going to disappear okay.
David Peterson: Watch just just just you know watch this.
David Peterson: is right.
Jessie Sams: You do remember that this is actually a podcast.
David Peterson: it's pretty good right.
Jessie Sams: Can you disappearing hand trick, which was actually not even very good won't be seen until later okay okay.
David Peterson: much later we're actually we're nearing the end of season two.
Jessie Sams: Oh yeah that's true.
David Peterson: Yes, and we just put all these up in a badge like like we just do it netflix style.
David Peterson: We.
Jessie Sams: make you wait for a long time and then release.
David Peterson: We could do one, at a time.
Jessie Sams: I mean we could.
Jessie Sams: we'd have to remember.
Jessie Sams: Okay, so all of this.
Jessie Sams: sounds.
Jessie Sams: Good sounds good for me i'm.
Jessie Sams: Good where do you want it.
Jessie Sams: To come rule wise.
David Peterson: let's take a look nasal assimilation you've either coloring post nasal voice and it's got to come after that.
David Peterson: Either merger.
David Peterson: Love Elvis.
Jessie Sams: Honestly, I don't think it matters because five through seven is all about bells.
Jessie Sams: yeah and those aren't going to affect.
Jessie Sams: And then the feeler vilar merger it's still going to be.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: they're not the same tone of rule.
David Peterson: Okay, this is they're not ordered with respect to each other, but I think it should come after the merger.
Jessie Sams: Okay.
David Peterson: Because this is essentially basically what this is saying is like distinctions are collapsing here, and so this is the distinction collapsing phase of this language, or rather the distinctions are being shifted from one area to another, and so that's why I think that it should go there.
David Peterson: And maybe the you've either either merger can be what kicks it off that's my thought, what do you think.
Jessie Sams: Right okay all right, I like that.
David Peterson: Okay, so then.
David Peterson: let's.
David Peterson: Have corresponding fewer consonant buddies that's cute.
David Peterson: call this Bruce is going to simplify this and call this tonal genesis.
David Peterson: goes to plus stone.
Jessie Sams: So the SP the bell gets tone yes.
David Peterson: voiceless stops collapse into.
David Peterson: whistle stops collapse into glottal stops and glottal stops.
David Peterson: leave a height.
David Peterson: race on the.
David Peterson: Val okay.
Jessie Sams: And can you.
Jessie Sams: Can you change that actually though to.
Jessie Sams: voiceless stop coders.
David Peterson: Yes, voiceless.
David Peterson: kowtows.
Jessie Sams: Thank you, because we don't want to get rid of.
Jessie Sams: You all.
Jessie Sams: yeah.
Jessie Sams: you're welcome we don't, otherwise we would get rid of all voiceless stops.
David Peterson: Yes, absolutely okay so.
David Peterson: leaving a high to trace on the previous fell at this point in time, the phonological system reorganizing itself.
David Peterson: And the.
David Peterson: And the language becomes.
David Peterson: Language becomes fully total Okay, let me think how I wanted to this now, I wanted to next.
Jessie Sams: Did we want to also.
Jessie Sams: Formerly specify.
Jessie Sams: Somewhere that.
Jessie Sams: The stress was.
Jessie Sams: An ultimate if ending in about.
Jessie Sams: ultimate if ending in a.
David Peterson: yeah.
David Peterson: We probably should i'll just i'll just.
David Peterson: i'll just do that here so i'll make that a part of this.
David Peterson: OK, so the old stress system you laughing at me you laughing at me.
David Peterson: Or do to you.
David Peterson: All right, the old stress system is replace.
David Peterson: The old for their system Okay, where.
David Peterson: Where was I gonna say.
David Peterson: Where okay so.
David Peterson: we're ending in quotas for stressed finally.
David Peterson: Words in Apps are not coders consonants I mean same thing we're sending and constants are stressed, finally and words ending in our.
David Peterson: soul.
David Peterson: yeah.
Jessie Sams: Oh, I was just gonna say like whether you would type constants are code is really saying the same thing cuz.
David Peterson: yeah I know.
Jessie Sams: consonants our photos so.
David Peterson: it's really slowly.
Jessie Sams: And she gonna do.
David Peterson: Okay.
David Peterson: Okay, so then launch Nina Thank you OK so.
David Peterson: The result of this is that.
David Peterson: syllables that used to have stress.
David Peterson: Now.
David Peterson: I won't get it.
David Peterson: They are.
David Peterson: let's say or gainsaid by.
David Peterson: A.
Jessie Sams: game said.
David Peterson: Yes, by depressed or it's a real word.
David Peterson: It is 100% a real word.
Jessie Sams: You know I know it's a real life.
Jessie Sams: i'm I know it's a real word I don't think i've ever had somebody just so casually drop it like that.
David Peterson: yeah well get used to it because I dropped game said left and right when it's appropriate and, in this case, yes, unless it's fair game said by a depressed or consonant.
David Peterson: voiced consonants on sets leave a low town trace and.
David Peterson: As to civil and concepts.
David Peterson: Simple and onsets in the voice kowtows.
David Peterson: by default.
Jessie Sams: you're typing that and I know you need to like talk through what you're typing Since you know people are hearing this, but just as a really random thing I looked at the origins of gainsay because I was like why.
Jessie Sams: Why does it mean to go like to contradict something if you think about like to gain something that anyway and it's actually because it's from an old.
Jessie Sams: prefix that meant against and it's really like literally where we also have our word against from.
David Peterson: Though it's.
Jessie Sams: like to say something against us and essentially.
David Peterson: So and i'm guessing that the and against probably is the same little prefix that we see in like a go right.
Jessie Sams: You know I would think so, but i'm looking at.
Jessie Sams: Of course I need to look up again, to be able to fight against um you know, actually, it may be different, because this again again comes from the old English on the end and so.
Jessie Sams: I had the oh in.
David Peterson: nope oh not again.
Jessie Sams: But against is from again.
David Peterson: Well then, i've learned something new.
Jessie Sams: It is going ahead with.
Jessie Sams: What I was just gonna say against has the SF verbiage genitive and then the T was probably by association with superlatives as an amongst.
Jessie Sams: That was just that's how we get against a go.
David Peterson: We say towards and forwards and backwards, is that way I have that is because I like to use that all the time, but it's like.
Jessie Sams: I do.
David Peterson: You know not inappropriate, but like.
Jessie Sams: My.
David Peterson: Formal.
Jessie Sams: yeah, so I think it's a British American distinction quite frankly.
i'm.
Jessie Sams: A girl is actually just listed.
Jessie Sams: As a go.
Jessie Sams: It doesn't provide any breakdown ahead comes from the a prefix meaning in our APP.
David Peterson: Alright, well, let me, let me see if I can come up with something a little bit better here just a second i'm gonna i'm gonna take a quick little Johnny ski over to which scenario.
David Peterson: and see if they got anything else for me.
David Peterson: For middle years ago gone from a gone gone to go away to pass prismatic out.
David Peterson: And so it comes from woods.
David Peterson: And that cave descendants.
David Peterson: English.
David Peterson: But it says, equivalent to a plus gone and there's that prefix up away all right.
David Peterson: Okay, so glad that's settled.
Jessie Sams: And now we can go back to the the gainsaying.
Jessie Sams: Of depressive consonants okay.
Jessie Sams: Yes, and you left off, we have voice continent on sets leave alone on trees, as do civil onsets and voice coda's unstressed syllables take a boat on by default and now you're ready to keep going.
David Peterson: Now I have totally now like, I totally forgotten where I was just completely and totally completely just forgotten exactly okay so i'm going to read this again.
David Peterson: where's the stock quotes collapse in a glottal stop suicidal stops leave a high tone trace on the previous bell this point in time, the phonological system reorganize itself the language becomes fully tone old stress system where words in a constant stress violin.
David Peterson: is abandoned the result of this is that syllables that used to have stress, now we get high tone unless they are gainsaid by depressed or consonant.
David Peterson: Wisconsin it's onsets leave low tone trays right as to sibilant.
David Peterson: onsets invoice kudos.
David Peterson: Okay, I think, then, that is.
David Peterson: Actually, all we need to say.
David Peterson: Okay.
Jessie Sams: Well, not everything, because then you have to mention that, however, you want to word it but.
Jessie Sams: yeah more.
David Peterson: Okay.
David Peterson: These um let's see let's call these these tonal influences will fight amongst themselves.
David Peterson: War, if you will, for control of the syllable.
David Peterson: should be.
David Peterson: should be high tone influences went out the soul.
David Peterson: soul will have.
David Peterson: The the low tone influences when out the syllable will have low.
David Peterson: Should there be a tie.
David Peterson: No, I want to make this even better, excuse me.
David Peterson: Stranger in the event.
David Peterson: Of a tie.
David Peterson: The syllable will take a falling town.
David Peterson: And then let's say how these things are going to be written in our organization so high tone EG.
David Peterson: Good.
David Peterson: So we'll have low tone he just that and then following.
Jessie Sams: And so, for the people who can't see EG like that.
David Peterson: Right i'm sorry I keep forgetting that everybody can't see this, I mean they'll eventually be able to see i'm so sorry so.
David Peterson: My bad my bad there okay so high tone is going to get an acute accent mark low tone is going to get nothing because it does you know.
David Peterson: You should have something so like low tones just get nothing, and then the following tone is going to have a circle FLEX accent over it, and that is how we are going to write the home part of the language okay.
Jessie Sams: and
Jessie Sams: Do you want this or complex, or do you just want the graph because we're not using that for low tone.
Jessie Sams: Or would that be like cognitively confusing.
David Peterson: know that would be very confusing so now there's like no way that we would do that but yeah, thank you for the recommendation I I take our recommendations very seriously from my employees.
Jessie Sams: Your unpaid and please.
Jessie Sams: awesome.
Jessie Sams: wow.
Jessie Sams: Okay, so let's go ahead and like actually walk through and apply these rules to at least a couple i'm looking at the time, I know.
David Peterson: yeah.
David Peterson: we're almost coming up.
Jessie Sams: On the end, but like I also just want to leave these kind of somewhere, so we don't have to read a whole paragraph to remind ourselves.
Jessie Sams: So, having it actually written now with the.
Jessie Sams: You know, stressed as this unstressed as that I think will be very helpful.
Jessie Sams: And so we're starting small because we just have.
Jessie Sams: pale.
David Peterson: Okay, so yeah.
David Peterson: let's let's go through it let's add it up.
Jessie Sams: we've got a voiceless onset so that's plus one high yep.
Jessie Sams: But we have a.
Jessie Sams: voice kota so that's plus one low.
Jessie Sams: Right and then for one syllable word that has to be that that's where the stresses.
Jessie Sams: That is where the service plus one.
Jessie Sams: plus one hi.
Jessie Sams: and
David Peterson: I think that says that high is the winner is that right.
David Peterson: Yes, okay.
David Peterson: Very good.
David Peterson: Then I guess we're just well we're probably about done with our sound changes I think at this point, so there we go bed bed bed look.
Jessie Sams: like it.
David Peterson: it's, no, no, I think, is.
David Peterson: Pam baby.
Jessie Sams: yeah yeah.
David Peterson: It was like it's.
David Peterson: it's a word for like a like a rice dish or something.
David Peterson: You know what I mean like some sort of savory creamy rice trish yeah.
Jessie Sams: Sure okay so.
Jessie Sams: yeah for the next one.
Jessie Sams: and keep us moving along here, we do have a two syllable word here and but it ends in a consonant and so it's going to be stressed on the final syllables so.
Jessie Sams: unzipped.
Jessie Sams: is going to have that stress so looking at the stress syllable first or do you want to start with the unstressed syllable since its first thing we would type it first.
David Peterson: yeah that's probably a good idea okay let's do that so first syllable we have no onset so nothing happens there.
David Peterson: what's next.
Jessie Sams: We have a voice kota so it gets plus one low and it's unstressed, so it is definitely a low.
David Peterson: So yes, and so we oh boy.
Jessie Sams: We have both just do.
Jessie Sams: ash and we're gonna have to type something for that.
David Peterson: yeah i'm just gonna write a little a little bitty note ski here we haven't actually done like an official feminization yet, but I think that should probably be like.
David Peterson: yeah no no hold on SEC, that will be that and then this will be this and then.
David Peterson: All the.
Jessie Sams: So what he's saying is that the.
Jessie Sams: Roman a yeah and that the ash sound will be in a with an amount over it.
David Peterson: Right and then are you ready for this.
Jessie Sams: i'm really.
David Peterson: I.
Jessie Sams: interested in seeing how you're going to mark tone.
David Peterson: I really don't think that you're ready for this i'm just going to i'm just going to say that, right now, that you are completely and totally.
David Peterson: unready for what I am about to do i'm stalling because i'm not finding the thing that I want with it because it.
David Peterson: don't.
David Peterson: lie to me, I know it's here.
Jessie Sams: Are you trying to find the one where it's the amount and the accent mark together.
David Peterson: it's just.
David Peterson: Why are you tired.
David Peterson: Like it's supposed to be here in the thing.
David Peterson: Not like that, but, like the other one the the one that's more common, the double down is not as common as the double up that I want the double.
Jessie Sams: Oh Oh, I see what you're doing you're extending the two little dot mounts.
Jessie Sams: And you want the devil acute accent mark over the a.
David Peterson: Yes, but I wanted as a prize, you know no I don't get to do that.
Jessie Sams: Also, maybe don't get to actually.
Jessie Sams: put it in there, if you can't find it.
David Peterson: it's ridiculous, this is this is how you write it in Hungarian.
Jessie Sams: You hey oh.
Jessie Sams: I don't know.
David Peterson: Absolutely that's that's how you do it in Hungarian like this should be basic cuz Hungarian is a big language they like gave us most of our monarchs right.
Jessie Sams: what's really interesting is that the devil graph i'm totally listening the double grub is.
Jessie Sams: easily findable.
Jessie Sams: yeah any double acute.
David Peterson: This.
David Peterson: Okay, but Dakota now i'm going to go to Wikipedia here we go home going in the language.
Jessie Sams: And as he's searching for this i'm going to keep typing.
David Peterson: Right.
Jessie Sams: And so we've got the ash we've got the end we got the jeezy and then we have the second syllable zero, which of course is the stress syllable so it's got that high tone so there's one for high it's got that voiceless.
Jessie Sams: The voiceless kota the STOP kota so that's another one for high and then it's going to disappear.
David Peterson: And then, my goodness.
David Peterson: Of course, oh no.
Jessie Sams: david's gonna cut me off, but it's got a voice onset which is plus one low so we've got to high one low so high still wins out and so that will be a high tone.
Jessie Sams: on them.
David Peterson: But if I can just interrupt you again, please, so the APP like.
David Peterson: there's no front Val in Hungarian there's no a with a new loud and Hungarian it's just a UN UN Oh, with an oem loud So those are the ones that have the double acute not the art and that was totally my bad I am so sorry Hungarian speakers I do that they're.
David Peterson: Okay, and now i'm just questioning.
David Peterson: Everything think was you're just going to have to use ash, because there is an ash with an acute accent now it's just a question of if there's, one that has a complex accent.
David Peterson: there's that.
Jessie Sams: Well, I mean we can make it half one.
Ah.
David Peterson: This is terrible.
Jessie Sams: Why don't you can just use like the IPA keyboard and give it one give it a little hat.
David Peterson: it's better if it has its own unicode spot then it's more likely to render correctly.
David Peterson: it's you know what i'm saying.
David Peterson: I need a critical marks okay well that's fine all right it's fine it's fine it's fine okay it's fine.
David Peterson: This is silly this doesn't matter all right, but okay so yeah and Z OK.
Jessie Sams: and
Jessie Sams: Now we're ready for the.
Jessie Sams: yeah we're ready for the next word and you're going to say it.
David Peterson: Okay, so stressed high tone, which is a high tone and which is a low tone high tone wins and so Oh well, now we can do it.
David Peterson: And we are back in the good graces of Hungarian speakers everywhere, because today.
David Peterson: Good in.
Jessie Sams: That way.
David Peterson: And with that, I think that we are done.
Jessie Sams: love it.
Jessie Sams: Excellent so yeah so we're finally applying tone and we can pick up here and remind ourselves how to read you know, apply the tone to finish these out and we can focus in the next episode, I think it would be a good time to focus on romanization.
Jessie Sams: And you know strategies there of because I know a lot of people have asked questions about romanization, and so I feel like that.
Jessie Sams: could be fun for us to focus an episode on that.
David Peterson: yeah I mean shouldn't take a whole episode right, I mean.
Jessie Sams: No, no, but I mean there's so many more things that we can do.
Jessie Sams: To you know continue in the language, so I know, and I know that there are definitely patrons interested in.
Jessie Sams: really talking through a lot more verbs and what verbs can do so i'm excited to I know it's your favorite i'm i'm excited to like kind of settle into that too, and have some episodes where we can discuss all the fun things that verbs can do.
David Peterson: yep alright cool Well then, I guess, everybody, thank you for listening, since you were listening and not watching.
David Peterson: As I remember.
David Peterson: As I always remember as I always keep in mind and yeah so, then I don't know stay.
Jessie Sams: Like a grammar.
David Peterson: yeah there we go.
Jessie Sams: ready until next time bye no USA by two.
David Peterson: yeah there we go bye everybody.