Jessie Sams: Okay, welcome to link time chat episode 12.
Jessie Sams: In other words, this is a whole year now, a whole year.
David Peterson: Oh yeah I guess that is what that means, if we do this, once a month.
Jessie Sams: I mean by standard earth calculations, yes, but by other.
Jessie Sams: World calculations it's just 12 podcasts that's all that matters.
David Peterson: that's right.
Jessie Sams: And today i'm going to be driving the topic and asking david's questions.
Jessie Sams: it's very exciting.
Jessie Sams: Okay, but first like.
Jessie Sams: that the focus of this podcast is going to be on family things is that actually a term or did I just start using it, because it works.
David Peterson: it's both.
David Peterson: So it was already a term but, nevertheless, I believe that you independently invented it.
David Peterson: You know not like you hadn't heard it before you just independently invented it and it was fine because it makes sense that it works yeah.
Jessie Sams: Well that's what we're talking about today.
Jessie Sams: Exercise because, to give like some context for the backstory here in case anyone's curious what brought this to my forefront.
Jessie Sams: to the forefront of my mind, that would be more of what you would say in English.
Jessie Sams: In my class this semester, I have more students than ever, creating families in the past it's been a lot more students, creating their own worlds, and you know just kind of doing whatever really speaks to them.
Jessie Sams: But in this particular class, there has been a major shift we're just so many students are creating your own languages for existing fictional fantasy worlds and so.
Jessie Sams: Whether their game, some of them are doing it for games some for shows movies so like it's just like I find it very interesting.
Jessie Sams: In on the one hand, like that makes it.
Jessie Sams: easier when you start the language, because you know there's all these preset elements that you don't have to make decisions about like you already know who your speakers are you already know what the world looks like what kind of words you're going to need because you've seen.
Jessie Sams: where they live, how they interact and so on, but the downside is that there's preset elements you're kind of stuck with what.
Jessie Sams: The game, or the show gives you unless you want to do some sort of radical reconstruction of what you're working with.
Jessie Sams: And so today's focus is going to be on how to create a language for an existing world and how to hopefully do it well.
Jessie Sams: And so, my first question is more general because David, this is obviously just like what you do a lot is create languages for worlds that are just handed to you and it's like here's these characters here's.
Jessie Sams: What you have to have words for and what are some of the difficult things, especially things that you wouldn't necessarily think about whenever you go into a project like that.
Jessie Sams: What are some difficult things you've had to work around because everything has been sort of handed to you and it's like this is how it is.
David Peterson: Let me.
David Peterson: Let me begin this or, let me begin my the answer to this question by.
David Peterson: showing you my compatriot over here.
Jessie Sams: Which on a podcast i'm going to go ahead and explain you'll see this when the YouTube video is released, but right now, Roman is sleeping in this great little tiny beam of sunshine hitting him right on the forehead.
Jessie Sams: And now he's moving his head down like yeah.
Jessie Sams: Very snuggled and happy.
yeah.
David Peterson: He didn't stay with me last yesterday, but today he's so happy, and so I want to say things that will make him happy.
David Peterson: Like he's a very good boy who doesn't like me and doesn't call on me and that's so nice anyway.
Jessie Sams: It is yeah so so back to the actual podcast.
David Peterson: yeah so the problems.
David Peterson: There is always a either the risk of a problem or a problem when you are inheriting something that you have to give order to that was created, with no order at all.
David Peterson: And that's and that's the that's the biggest issue and it becomes more and more difficult, the more and more material there is.
David Peterson: Basically, the more material, there is the the top of your job is going to be no matter what, if there was no guiding principle.
David Peterson: To what was being created or if there was a guiding principle, but the guiding principle makes no sense, so, for example, like a lot of the Star Wars stuff was created by.
David Peterson: You know, like just the names and the words and everything were created by finding two random words in a magazine and sticking half of one with the half of the other, and so, that is, you know it is a guiding principle it's a metric i'm sure William s burroughs would be a big fan but.
David Peterson: it's not great, when you have to come up with a system that lies behind it, because really the only thing that we can be absolutely certain.
David Peterson: With respect to language is that there is it's basically one larger system with interdependent interdependent and interrelated.
David Peterson: subsystem yeah and you know they may clash, at times, but there's there's order there and everything that we haven't found yet anything that qualifies as a language, where there isn't something that you can rely on.
David Peterson: And, and often the systems that are created do ahead of time that's precisely the case there's nothing that you can rely on whatsoever it'll just be totally random.
David Peterson: So yeah the.
David Peterson: I guess the amount of material is the biggest is the biggest impediment the biggest obstacle.
David Peterson: yeah and i'm thinking of a specific project that I won't name.
David Peterson: But.
David Peterson: it's it's just too much is too much.
Jessie Sams: In specifically with thinking about like everything that they gave you that they're like we want all of these words to show up kind of thing or like trying to figure out what makes sense, given these names of places and people.
David Peterson: And that's The other thing, though that's The other thing that that you think it would be helpful, but it actually isn't.
David Peterson: Often, what you're, especially with TV shows and movies.
David Peterson: you're working with a third party.
David Peterson: Third party who's adapting somebody else's work.
David Peterson: yeah and so when they come to you like usually, when push comes to shove, they say, well just make something that like works for you make something that's consistent for us.
David Peterson: And you don't have to take everything into account.
David Peterson: But like i'm not coming on two projects where it's like Oh, this is a an obscure little book that has like five fans, but the director whatever really loved it.
David Peterson: they're.
David Peterson: Huge franchises that have millions of fans over decades right and the thing is like that's who's going to care.
David Peterson: And so it's fine for like the director and producer to say that, like because they have so much more that they're doing.
David Peterson: And it's like yeah for them it's not just a we remove this character right there we're talking like characters character design setting the story like.
David Peterson: Everything they're trying to do, plus producers breathing down their neck with with me right, like when i'm coming out of a project it's like this is the only thing i'm doing i'm just doing the language so at the very least, I should try to get that right.
David Peterson: And also, and I can't undersell this I am incurably lazy, especially the larger the project gets and so, if it's just me like working on the project, I am much more than likely to push things off to later and then throw my hands up and say, well, I did my best to end early I didn't.
David Peterson: It helps to have somebody responsible.
David Peterson: Somebody you respect.
David Peterson: And someone who will do the hard work.
David Peterson: That I am just not willing to do.
David Peterson: to work with.
David Peterson: I mean I don't know who that person might be.
David Peterson: No idea, you know.
David Peterson: that's that's The crucial thing, I think.
Jessie Sams: I think.
Jessie Sams: That leads into my next question, which is what advice, do you give someone if they're choosing to work within an existing world or fantasy land, and so the first piece of advice is obviously find a partner.
Jessie Sams: yeah that was.
Jessie Sams: That piece of advice.
David Peterson: yeah and so you know, obviously I have a very good partner and little Rome and he doesn't say a lot, but he does what I need him to do.
Jessie Sams: It he's dependable.
David Peterson: yeah poor little guy.
David Peterson: who's never, never bitten me ever.
David Peterson: Go ahead and say that.
Jessie Sams: You go on record to lie I guess you can go on record and that's perjury i've seen me.
Jessie Sams: A photo evidence, otherwise as anybody who's seen, I think you posted on like Twitter oh wait.
Jessie Sams: No, there we go he's showing it right.
David Peterson: Okay, look at this, I mean at a certain point, you might think i'm one of these people that cuts themselves, but no it's just you it's just you you little rat.
Jessie Sams: So, in terms of advice for somebody.
Jessie Sams: else who is doing it on their own and they don't have a producer or a man base of you know, decades old fan base.
Jessie Sams: What are some things that that they may want to watch out for are things that you know things you may have advice about for how to how to create a nice fan language that feels real.
David Peterson: I mean at the at the macro level, you could just.
David Peterson: I could make the suggestion, even though I don't I say i'll say this but, like I don't do it.
David Peterson: You could just draw a circle around what your cannon is going to be and exclude everything outside that circle and then make what order you can.
David Peterson: And it feels to be like that is good advice and it's the healthy thing to do, it's going to make your life a lot easier and it's going to lead to more satisfying results, but I don't do that.
David Peterson: I never do I.
David Peterson: Take everything and then.
David Peterson: When I discover I miss, something that I feel really bad about it.
Jessie Sams: As you.
David Peterson: feel yeah I still feel bad that I unbelievably somehow lost how barreto and called porno for death rocky which.
David Peterson: I got like the major reason that I excluded BNP from the phonology aside from the fact that they're ugly sounds that I don't like.
David Peterson: Is that I didn't have evidence of their existence, but I did the they were there and I missed them, so I still feel bad about that, even though I satisfied with my explanation that you know, there was a merger right.
David Peterson: There was a merger and there can be it can be like a dialect continuum kind of like the the tk thing and hawaiian where you will still get people pronouncing the t's there that have been shifted a case elsewhere.
David Peterson: So you know i'm i'm fine with that, but it's not like i'm ever going to forget that and be like oh that was fine that was a good decision, even it's like now I missed it I missed it and I feel bad.
David Peterson: But if you are the type of kightlinger who is able to do that and say like you know the material that comes from these three books that's going to be my canon because everything that came afterwards was terrible and that's great.
David Peterson: And it'll probably make your life a lot easier.
David Peterson: Now beyond that and I don't know if this is going to run into a follow up questions even tell me like, there is the practical advice of what do you do with you have, if you like, here's your book in here are some words right where you ask that later, or can we get.
Jessie Sams: That that was like another part of this question, because this question actually.
Jessie Sams: Is question and then like Part A, and Part B and you just hit on Part A, and that is yeah that you.
Jessie Sams: Use you have one straight hair.
Jessie Sams: Or it wants to section.
Jessie Sams: But yeah so, given the fact that you may have anything from place name and character names to even sometimes those you know I tell us ice words that just randomly show up as like part of the language.
Jessie Sams: yeah advice for figuring out what to do with all these little pieces that are kind of scattered.
David Peterson: mm hmm.
Jessie Sams: In the book or show if it's not a written text, of course, it could be a show as well.
David Peterson: yeah so I started off with a lot of macro general advice, but here I want to delve into some like gross stuff because I think that there is a very.
David Peterson: There are some very useful things that.
David Peterson: Everybody learns as they go through linguistics as an undergraduate.
David Peterson: That are quite useful.
David Peterson: Which is it can be kind of glossed over but it's like, especially if you're the type of crowd linger has been at it for a little bit, and so it just feels more natural to kind of do things but it helps sometimes to go back to the very, very basics.
David Peterson: And one of the one of the cornerstones I think of any type of of linguistic analysis is as minimal pairs or near minimal pairs.
David Peterson: And so it's like yeah it's gonna be a really, really hard thing if it's just like a whole bunch of a mess of data, because ultimately that's what you're working with you're working in beta.
David Peterson: But you know whether you're working with sounds or whether you're working with meanings you can always just say all right.
David Peterson: here's the sentence and here's what it's supposed to mean let's write it down.
David Peterson: Now let's see if there's any of these words that have been used anywhere else throughout text and then let's pull that out and pull that meaning out.
David Peterson: so that you can just look at the two and see what's the same what's different and try to both assign meanings to different pieces and also figure out how shades of meanings work so like this is, I mean this is exactly what I did with with rocky.
David Peterson: And it's it's very helpful because it can help you make decisions that are actually quite advanced that you might not have thought of like, and this is not this talking about meeting more than then sounds the moment but like there.
David Peterson: There are these two phrases that are in the first game of thrones book.
David Peterson: And it's a lucky death Ray which is translated as the Prince is writing Okay, then there's another one, I like a dearth right Moran hat and that's translated as a Prince rides inside me.
David Peterson: So first that's a beautiful minimal pair because you can see all right, however it's going to work, obviously the button high powered is going to be inside me but beyond that there was something that was even more of a gift, I thought, when I was building this.
David Peterson: Because the words don't change it with rocky words don't change, but you have holocaust, which is clearly both the Prince and Prince.
David Peterson: And that was great because all it told me it's like all right there's probably not you know definite marketing, I mean if I had really wanted it I could have found some sort of wild you know exception to do whatever I wanted, but.
Jessie Sams: Right.
David Peterson: The simplest explanation was that okay this this language just doesn't care like Russian or land.
David Peterson: And then the next part was delta, which was translated at one point in time, as his writing and then at the second time as rides.
David Peterson: And so, then there again I could say all right, maybe this language just doesn't make that distinction, you know it's not going to have like some distinction between your present progressive or general present it's not going to have different marking.
David Peterson: And I could tell that because of the translation right and that the translation was.
David Peterson: taken to be accurate right and that I had these two sentences to compare so you're not always going to get that and you're not always going to get like total minimal pairs often there won't be near minimal pairs but it's kind of like with.
David Peterson: figuring out which part was printed which part was ride you couldn't actually figure that out from those two sentences.
David Peterson: yeah you can figure out the inside me part of the other one you didn't know which was which, but you pull it out, knowing that are right there, called the death rocky they write a.
David Peterson: lot of horses there's this place called by stuff rock and so it's like you can kind of figure out Okay, it would make sense if they were like the writers, or something like that.
David Peterson: Right and then you have words like how Kelly see and then how like they all have to do with some sort of like chain of command.
David Peterson: And so you can figure it out right that it makes the most sense for that to be the Prince and so that's the type of specific work that you're going through.
David Peterson: And you can do that both for me, and you can do it for sounds as well, where it's like you can just say it here are all the words let's find all the sounds that you see there.
David Peterson: And then you can separately go and say how many sounds occur at the beginning of the word.
David Peterson: How many sounds occur at the end of a word, how many sounds can occur next to each other and next to each other at the beginning of the word, at the end of the word or in the middle of the word, and as you kind of write all these things out.
David Peterson: One or two things are going to happen either patterns will naturally emerge.
Jessie Sams: mm hmm or.
David Peterson: you'll bring your own patterns to it and say Okay, is there anything that disproves this with what I have called canon.
David Peterson: Right and if it does, you need to revise if it doesn't you could just say this is going to be a pattern moving forward and write it down and then move on.
Jessie Sams: So when you had these forms because, obviously, these are the modern forms yeah and you needed to create proto forms, did you create for these specific ones, because you knew they were going to be cannon and they have to look this way in the modern form to match what was there.
Jessie Sams: Did you end up like doing proto forms that that really like stayed the same for these particular routes or did you have to then like as you created all the rules have to like work back to say, well, what would do three have been to fit all these other rules.
David Peterson: yeah that was that was more difficult, and it was less satisfying i'll tell you, because it's always less satisfying to start with something and work backwards, it just doesn't work out as well, but you know I did I did my best and yeah a lot of times the pro forums look very, very similar.
David Peterson: that's fine it wasn't going back that far anyway, it was just going back to to a time where.
David Peterson: You know, there were some grammatical differences there were some phonological differences but.
David Peterson: You can look at what I created as this older form of rocky and say yeah that makes a lot of sense, in other words it wasn't like it wasn't like looking at English and then looking at proto Indo European it was more like looking at said anish and then.
David Peterson: Old Spanish not even going back as.
Jessie Sams: far as Latin.
David Peterson: Okay right.
David Peterson: And that wasn't too bad.
David Peterson: But yeah so a lot of the protocols to look similar but also this is where this is where disappearing sounds can really be your friend.
David Peterson: So it's like the rocky is a formal system, but it came from a six bell system.
David Peterson: To send central Valley, because of course you can always delete central Dallas and nobody will miss them.
Jessie Sams: and
Jessie Sams: All of our preachers i'm sure.
Jessie Sams: will vary, with all the.
Jessie Sams: Central valley annihilation series that you have done, yes.
David Peterson: yeah it was delightful so yeah the the proto form of rocky has a shot that it has barred I and they're just gone they're gone different things happen to them when they were stressed when they were unstressed when they were part of a paradigm, it was just.
David Peterson: So Nice.
Jessie Sams: So, so, at least on anyone listening right now will know that this has been a long standing pattern for David and his colleagues is.
Jessie Sams: Central valley's just to kill them.
David Peterson: that's what they're there for.
Jessie Sams: or they're there to be vowels in your language but I mean what.
Jessie Sams: Other that's cool.
David Peterson: let's I mean come on it's just the two of us, we can talk seriously right now, these things are the red shirts at phonetics.
Jessie Sams: shirts of fanatics.
David Peterson: yeah it's like all right we're we're picking some balls it's like Okay, he s ah Oo come on over.
David Peterson: yeah and we're also going to take.
David Peterson: Why did you come to and they're like oh boy my first away mission i'm sure nothing's gonna go wrong.
Jessie Sams: Yes, Okay, so I mean listen central bowels have a place and like whatever that's why languages have them there's a reason they exist, David, but when.
David Peterson: They place it's it's just like.
David Peterson: You know it's just like that character that needs to die in order to move the plot forward, you know.
Jessie Sams: And so, do you is your prediction, and this is a little off track here, but do you predict that central valley's will die and natural languages is this a prediction that eventually they'll all just be annihilated because that's what they're there for.
David Peterson: Well, all of our systems are in a state of flux let's.
David Peterson: let's yeah.
Jessie Sams: that's a good way to put it, I mean I and honestly.
Jessie Sams: val's one of my least favorite things to teach the students when working with IPA because it's like.
Jessie Sams: yeah I mean you say you're you know, a sound different than I say my a sound and, in a word, yeah that does sound actually more like ad and I think it should sound more like you know, like it just.
David Peterson: yeah.
David Peterson: Sorry dolls are the verbs of fanatics consonants are the nouns.
Jessie Sams: down on the burbs and okay were you done with that one or.
Jessie Sams: Did you have more to say.
David Peterson: Probably not.
Jessie Sams: Okay, because actually to go back to something you had said, because that sentence was a Prince rides inside of me and i'm guessing that it's like a way of saying i'm pregnant in depth rocky.
Jessie Sams: yeah Okay, so that, like matches up well so apparently what you were given in the books actually was kind of Nice in terms of how certain things matched up, but then also how you have these these great.
Jessie Sams: parallels with like okay writing is important to them so important that this is actually how they say something like i'm carrying a child.
Jessie Sams: But with that.
Jessie Sams: Did you have you been in a situation where you looked at the meaning and you're like there's.
Jessie Sams: Just no way that that sentence a should mean this and then sentence be should mean this totally other thing, have you ever been in a situation like that, or if you've been lucky enough to not have to.
Jessie Sams: worry about.
Jessie Sams: So, so what advice, do you have when that happens when you're looking at these two things and you're like there's just there's no way.
David Peterson: fucking cry.
Jessie Sams: Okay, so that's the advice go ahead and.
Jessie Sams: Take your moment.
David Peterson: All right, you know um.
David Peterson: i'll give you an example, because I was able to I was able to find a way to do this.
David Peterson: The.
David Peterson: libra do go bless her heart dear friend good friend good friend, but you know, I was trying to you know build out the the rockin language, for the first season of shadow and bone and.
David Peterson: there's just.
David Peterson: We have these two phrases soul quarter lever which means the sun Queen.
David Peterson: and sold that soul, which means son soldiers.
David Peterson: and
Jessie Sams: yeah.
David Peterson: and
David Peterson: And I understand her methodology, which is it sounded better because otherwise you're saying Sol Sol that and that's.
David Peterson: Right yeah but the truth is like if If, however, those constructions work they're like identical.
David Peterson: right and it wouldn't sound bad to the speakers of that language.
Right.
David Peterson: And so it was like.
David Peterson: I there was like no way I could distinguish between these two phrases they work exactly the same as just oh God, what do I do with this, so I did something I did something and I think it kind of fixed it.
David Peterson: So it's like this is a is a language were two things going to happen when you go to just have something that a noun that acts upon another in opposition sure.
David Peterson: And then it's a language that is cases, and so I was like it was also going to be a language that has genders, it was just going to be some of that was going to happen, it was from the books there's we're going to have to be rolling with the masculine feminine and neuter.
David Peterson: And so, this is the word for son, and I was, like all right well if I just make it so that this word is in a gender where the genitive looks like the nominative for this particular type.
David Peterson: Then this can work.
David Peterson: So that is exactly what I did, and so, for one of them it's a noun acting in opposition to the other one is a noun and the genitive.
Jessie Sams: So.
Jessie Sams: You know there's things you can do beyond crying.
David Peterson: yeah.
Jessie Sams: it's right here, but yeah that's got to be like a really difficult thing, and I know that it happens.
Jessie Sams: A lot because, and I, not just because it's not necessarily a linguist making the words but I mean that helps if linguists are actually helping.
Jessie Sams: But also like anyone I think who's written a creative work knows that at some point in the book if you don't have good enough notes.
Jessie Sams: you're going to like write down the wrong thing and you're not going to remember to go back 300 pages and look to see wait what order did I put it in here.
Jessie Sams: And so, like that could be especially because, like the language wasn't the focus of the book, so it wasn't like that was the the driving force behind it, and so you know you're just you're gonna get mistakes like that so.
David Peterson: yeah I.
Jessie Sams: want to keep in mind.
David Peterson: And one of the big problems with this is that.
David Peterson: If you make a decision like the like the one I made if you make that decision it's like you only get so many of those right.
David Peterson: Right it's like there's only going to be so many genders, and once you set up that case system that's like the there's only.
David Peterson: it's like so it's like all right, well, I made that decision to make this thing work.
David Peterson: And you're hoping that you don't come down the line and find something else that's in Congress, where you don't have any decisions left that you can make there's no other areas of grammar that you haven't mapped out yet.
David Peterson: right that you can pull in to save you somehow.
David Peterson: And that absolutely has happened with another project not not with shadow, but with a different project where everything is just.
David Peterson: I did my best some places I screwed up and some places there was just nothing, nothing to be done.
Right.
Jessie Sams: That can hurt sometimes.
um.
Jessie Sams: OK, so the next part of this question actually goes away from looking at the the words and the whatever constructions or structures that you have in the meetings, you have to deal with, but turning to, and I know you've talked specifically.
Jessie Sams: About D amp D before and so i'm going to bring in a little dungeons and dragons reference here, because sometimes what you get is a world where the way they described the languages or how the languages work just doesn't make sense linguistically.
Jessie Sams: And so, for anyone who's not familiar with the end they have like in the official.
Jessie Sams: guide by character race so like if you have an org an Elf a gnome a dwarf the each speak different languages, but it's like separated by race.
Jessie Sams: And that doesn't really make sense unless they all lived in the same area and spoke that together, but the concept of the D amp D world is that you know, not every work came from ork towns.
Jessie Sams: and not every known lives in nome ville it's instead they're like all mixed together so regionally it doesn't make sense and also it doesn't give the.
Jessie Sams: It doesn't say that you know, like Oh, the gnome who lived in nashville may speak a different language or dialect than the gnome who lives in nome land right so like even then it doesn't necessarily map out.
Jessie Sams: And that's, not even to consider the descriptions of the language with how they describe them to say like how they sound or whatever.
Jessie Sams: And so, because I know like specifically, I do have a lot of students right now super into doing D amp D languages and so like I know that's the thing too that a lot of complainers enjoy doing, as you know, if they're a dungeon master or whatever.
Jessie Sams: But that also means you're given this world that doesn't really make sense, with how they create the languages, so what advice, do you have for people who are working in that kind of thing, maybe not necessarily D amp D, but that kind of setup where it just doesn't make sense.
David Peterson: Well, let me start with a giving some praise to D amp D for For this reason, because this is something I actually didn't understand about it before.
David Peterson: I started playing with it, you know, like I, my understanding and B and D, it was like you know because, like they have these books, with all these rules.
David Peterson: And so it's like my thought was you have to read these books and memorize them and then you have to play by them, otherwise you were playing RON.
David Peterson: But it becomes clear as you're reading these things it's like here's a bunch of stuff that we've set up for you.
David Peterson: Now if you're creating the game, you can create it and tweak it, how you like it's like that's part of the entire ethel's.
David Peterson: I don't think they expect anybody to be playing the game exactly the way that they've written it written it and I think that's a really I know I think it's a really good way to go about it.
David Peterson: You know, and the yeah obviously if you're working with something like you know book series or anything that's going to be really, really different and that's a shame that's a shame, I think.
David Peterson: It would be nice if.
David Peterson: Not if it could be more collaborative but I don't know just.
David Peterson: If there were a different understanding of what cannon meant and what it had to be.
David Peterson: You know.
David Peterson: If there wasn't a constant feeling like you know you have to be stuck by by what was created, I know that that's I think a lot of what people enjoy about fanfiction.
David Peterson: But then.
David Peterson: At the same time, I know that's what a lot of people argue about with fanfiction means like the whole point of adventures like you're doing your own thing, but then you'll get people arguing it's like.
David Peterson: Like know Harry wouldn't do that because of blah blah blah blah blah and it's like you've already moved beyond that.
David Peterson: Right, how is this even a discussion, you know.
But.
David Peterson: Anyway, so yeah if if you're working within Congress world.
David Peterson: Ultimately, the question that you're going to be wrestling with and it's a very high level question is how much do I care about like how important Is this what am I acceptable or what, what can I accept.
David Peterson: as being an acceptable change and what is not.
David Peterson: And so I think it's a it's a good and important discussion to have at the beginning to figure it out, and then you can decide all right.
David Peterson: These these are my fence posts everything else, I can feel free to change, and if you give yourself that permission, then you should really feel free to change it and and yeah so like, and there I.
David Peterson: I both love and hate how you will see fans try to rescue in in congruent.
David Peterson: I love it because it just shows you how ingenious people can be where it's like here are these absolutely irreconcilable facts and there's no way.
David Peterson: That anybody could possibly have any different interpretation and then suddenly here's five different people with five different fixes for it.
David Peterson: Some of them aren't great, but some of them can be quite clever and I love that ingenuity.
David Peterson: But at the same time I wish they didn't feel they had to do that.
Jessie Sams: Right.
David Peterson: That it's like this drive it's like well I love this, and so this thing must be perfect, and so I have to put in all of this mental energy to preserve its perfection, and so that everything that was written is exactly 100% true.
David Peterson: And I still feel people should have to do that it shouldn't be necessary.
Jessie Sams: Right it shouldn't be but like based on what you had said about how you took you know all this data and it had to be like everything, not just like.
Jessie Sams: yeah part of it, would you be able to ignore those incongruities.
David Peterson: Well, the thing is like it was different for me because, like i'm i'm not the fan right.
Jessie Sams: mm hmm.
David Peterson: it's just a different level of responsibility.
David Peterson: it's winning if you're doing your own thing because that's what you love and that's why you're doing it's quite another thing if you're one.
David Peterson: of potentially many people who have been plucked out and are being paid.
Jessie Sams: To do a.
David Peterson: Right it's a totally different level there.
Jessie Sams: So you're saying, if you had created both rocky as a fan line like just totally because you loved it so much that you wanted to create a language just for your your own edification you're saying you would have been able to ignore some of the things.
Jessie Sams: The thinker.
David Peterson: it's hard when you have this textual evidence and there's and it's so clear, because that was the thing for me it was so clear what everything meant.
David Peterson: Because of the way it was written in the way it was done.
David Peterson: And because he did put a level of care into it, where it's like the sounds weren't random.
David Peterson: Very meanings weren't random.
David Peterson: So that it would have been much harder to justify because, of course, what I wanted to do with rocky.
David Peterson: Like if I just wanted to do something was I wanted a gluten native language.
David Peterson: With great big verbs and probably not many cases, but like if he just looked at it it's like there's no way, this is, this is an spl standard average European language, and so it was like taking that, as my baseline is like what else can I do, possibly, what can I do with this.
Jessie Sams: Were you tempted to say that the Th is actually just like don't Turkey, you know, to get rid of that were you tempted.
David Peterson: Now I mean you couldn't you couldn't it was it's right in the name of the language.
David Peterson: that's that's like looking at it and saying it should be pronounced stealth Rack, I.
Jessie Sams: Apparently that's how some people look at it and say it.
Jessie Sams: And it's not me in case you're wondering if you're listening.
yeah.
Jessie Sams: cool okay so fan links if you're doing it.
Jessie Sams: Make it make it work, how you want to.
Jessie Sams: Do you know of any existing fan links that are available online like descriptions of them available online that are what you think would be like good examples for other people to draw inspiration from if they're like.
Jessie Sams: Trying to see like well you know what's what's possible, especially if they want to create a language for the same world just to kind of see.
Jessie Sams: what's out there.
David Peterson: i'll say this it's harder to assess the quality visa V how good a fan like it is if you're not up on the fan.
Jessie Sams: yeah yeah.
David Peterson: So so that's going to be tough, for me, because the first the first one that came to mind, of course, was the gear ruto language.
David Peterson: But I don't know anything about it it's from it's from link.
David Peterson: A legend of zelda.
David Peterson: yeah and.
David Peterson: And I know it's got it actually does have quite a following and.
David Peterson: And you know so it's and it's pretty big but like I don't know like I I kind of checked out after a link to the past, which was the third game that was on sts.
David Peterson: And so, like, I know I know I know exactly what you're thinking you're thinking wow this guy's just a total casual I get that.
Jessie Sams: And I guess that's exactly what i'm thinking.
David Peterson: yeah but it's like.
David Peterson: I didn't play majoris mask I didn't play or kareena time so I don't know, and these are these are things that you just know obviously just off the back of your head.
Obviously.
David Peterson: So I don't know what material she was drawing from so I can't like assess how good a job she did, but I know that it's out there it's big and it's got a lot of YouTube videos and the thing that i'm trying to do now.
Jessie Sams: And that's in Christine Johnson right forgive you to.
David Peterson: Thank you for remembering that because that's what I was looking up, I was looking up the name and i'm going to try to find.
David Peterson: You know, so we can just say, like a social media.
Jessie Sams: I know she's on Twitter.
Yes.
Jessie Sams: And so I can find that if you want to think or say any other language.
David Peterson: I mean i'm trying to find it too yes and Christine Johnson.
Jessie Sams: And it's.
Jessie Sams: Good rudolph's in if.
Jessie Sams: I say that right that's.
David Peterson: The people are the Garuda tribe.
David Peterson: and
David Peterson: So it's kind of funny of course try Slavic tries melodic words that you chose initial.
David Peterson: I would do that don't die.
David Peterson: mm hmm.
Jessie Sams: Is that how it's supposed to be.
David Peterson: I don't know.
Jessie Sams: And i'm typing it out so that way, I remember to also put that in the post whenever I post this podcast.
Jessie Sams: yeah that way if you're on Twitter, you can find.
David Peterson: yeah her Twitter, by the way, is at your router's so G, are you do, and then a handmade a sorry did the pronunciation there he he he and I be so G, are you do s eh E and IV.
David Peterson: Yes, okay so that's one I mean obviously one of the biggest I don't even know if you want to call us a fan line, but it wasn't a star the Star Wars extended universe was the Mandela language.
David Peterson: That was created for by an author for one of the novels in the Star Wars extended universe, but then released and still a lot of people.
David Peterson: are familiar with it.
Jessie Sams: and enjoy that name again.
David Peterson: Mandela and a and do apostrophe a cool yeah.
David Peterson: And then I know that it wasn't used in the man delorean.
David Peterson: And so, some people were miffed by that.
David Peterson: And then, well, I guess, depending on your definition of family, you know.
David Peterson: The.
Jessie Sams: Yes, I do know that one.
David Peterson: Andrew Andrew Smith created his language Britannic right.
David Peterson: In this universe, where he supposed that the Romans stuck around in England much longer than they get.
David Peterson: And so they left a.
David Peterson: romance language there, and that was pretending a romance language with Celtic sound changes yeah.
Jessie Sams: So um and Andrew Smith, he said linguist and Kentucky right.
David Peterson: No, no, no.
Jessie Sams: No that's Andrew bird.
David Peterson: nevermind yeah.
David Peterson: No, he said he's from New Zealand, and I know I was looking forward to meeting him too, but the net New Zealand trips cancelled because it.
David Peterson: Right yeah.
David Peterson: and
Jessie Sams: By the way, I call those if links.
David Peterson: Oh, I like that.
Jessie Sams: I was going to go for alt Lang but like.
David Peterson: I don't know i'll get used in a lot of different contexts.
Jessie Sams: So if Lang.
David Peterson: Lang is used actually.
Jessie Sams: Oh, is it okay.
Jessie Sams: yeah okay.
David Peterson: yeah but okay so here's the thing, so I mentioned that one but that one wasn't the family.
David Peterson: Now the family was when he presented this to the con like list people liked it so much that they just wanted to create languages in his universe, and many did.
Jessie Sams: wow so ranching off okay.
David Peterson: yeah like not even necessarily related just in different parts of that universe like phonetic was by him and Stan Bergman.
Jessie Sams: And that is one that's.
David Peterson: set in the bath Assad universe.
David Peterson: There were several others but phonetic is probably the most well developed.
David Peterson: Of all the ones that i've seen.
David Peterson: So yeah was.
David Peterson: And that's kind of a cool thing, just like because you know Andrew Smith he's just a con linger but created something so cool that people just wanted to jump on board.
David Peterson: that's that's Nice and it's been.
David Peterson: yeah there have been a number of Tokyo spin offs as well.
David Peterson: Yes, so you can consider those to be bad links, but con lengthen legs.
David Peterson: And then.
David Peterson: there's one that's just on the tip of my little itty bitty praying and I can't get it.
Jessie Sams: guide your brain has.
Jessie Sams: A tip Thank you my head.
David Peterson: it's a it's a cliff and then for some reason there's a smaller brain that has arms and legs that kind of like sits its legs over the cliff and just you know sits and watches watches the sunset.
Jessie Sams: glad to know that's how your brain works.
Jessie Sams: yeah um we know those are those are all really great examples and I tried to take note of them all, but I can always ask you later if I miss something.
Jessie Sams: For the post, no.
Jessie Sams: we're not talking after this any more.
David Peterson: minutes and that's it.
Jessie Sams: that's it on a timer that's good that's good.
Jessie Sams: Okay, so here's The next question what fan links.
Jessie Sams: Would you like to see.
Jessie Sams: Would you most like to see developed and done well, so, in other words like.
Jessie Sams: What book series.
Jessie Sams: game, whatever.
Jessie Sams: you'd like to see it language created for, and I have two answers of my own so i'm very curious to hear yours first.
David Peterson: And then.
Jessie Sams: i'll give mine.
David Peterson: Oh yeah number one is absolutely Avatar the last airbender.
Jessie Sams: Okay yeah that was mine okay.
David Peterson: Well, that was one of my two one.
David Peterson: yeah I mean it's it's it's tough, I mean.
David Peterson: It was.
David Peterson: it's so wild the world building was was very interesting to very good, even if.
David Peterson: Some of it was a bit appropriate.
David Peterson: But like it was just the writing that was so good, the writing and the action of this that just made this story so good, and so compelling.
David Peterson: That I mean it just it begged for this type of treatment and it didn't get it and it just kills me.
yeah.
David Peterson: There was no way, it would have happened it started to relay yeah but.
Jessie Sams: yeah yeah.
David Peterson: it's something that.
David Peterson: In for that wizard a proper treatment yeah.
Jessie Sams: And for that one I could definitely see each of the you know bending groups, having a different language, because they actually were isolated from other areas and people.
Jessie Sams: But like it wouldn't just be the vendors, it would be like the humans in the region to would probably have that same language and so like that could be really cool, because then you also get like the the north and the south water bending.
David Peterson: areas and so it's like.
Jessie Sams: How you're going to treat those, whether they came from the same source of originally are like two completely separate things.
Jessie Sams: I just I don't know I just think that's like really exciting in terms of like what you can do, plus the visual imagery like Could you imagine creating an orthodoxy that looks like it belongs in that world like that.
Jessie Sams: yeah really fun.
David Peterson: And not only that knowing like you also know that they actually have that history right for all the peoples and where they migrated from they actually have that history, unlike you know, unlike you know a lot of these books series where it's just you know they only have so much.
David Peterson: All right.
David Peterson: They went all the way back because you saw a lot of it in legend of Cora.
David Peterson: In in the in the in the sequel series.
David Peterson: So it's like it could have been done right, it could have been done really well, it could have been the greatest common linking project ever.
Yes.
Jessie Sams: It really could have So yes, a family are actually multiple families for that world would definitely taught my list, do you have any others, that you would want to see them.
well.
David Peterson: If i'm just talking about myself as a fan, just as a total fan and things and something that really speaks to me it's labyrinth.
David Peterson: which of course is one of my favorite movies, of all time.
David Peterson: Of all always wanted to be yeah i've always just wanted to see that set.
Jessie Sams: But the second one, I was thinking of maybe harkens back to roughly the same time.
Jessie Sams: Because I want to see Florin in gilder from princess bride.
Jessie Sams: Because they talk about Florida, and they talk about gilder the language I forget, whether they specifically just call it gilder or like.
Jessie Sams: gilda Nice or something, but it Florida needs is specifically mentioned in the books, the two languages are mentioned, but never like there's no phrases, everything is you know, besides just names, I guess, but even the names are translated into English like.
David Peterson: huh.
Jessie Sams: cliffs of terror, or whatever, and so, like, I think that would be super awesome to actually have those languages fleshed out.
David Peterson: would be.
So you've read the bark created.
Jessie Sams: The book.
David Peterson: book.
David Peterson: you've read the book.
David Peterson: I didn't even know that there was a book.
Jessie Sams: i'm like why.
Jessie Sams: The book came before the movie.
Jessie Sams: Obviously, and at the beginning of the movie that's like.
Jessie Sams: Literally the grandpa was reading the beginning of the Princess bride.
David Peterson: yeah.
Jessie Sams: To the boy he's.
David Peterson: Speaking Oh, by the way, speaking of fanfiction in labyrinth of course it's something that's so maddening.
David Peterson: Sarah has a book called the labyrinth.
David Peterson: But it doesn't exist, like it's it's not real and not only that, like the book that she has, you know that it's not actually supposed to be the story of what is happening in the movie.
David Peterson: it's a second book.
David Peterson: about this labyrinth, that is slightly different and it's so tantalizing.
Jessie Sams: And just nothing so so there could be a fan fiction.
Jessie Sams: Book created for.
Jessie Sams: Be yeah in the movie book okay it's.
David Peterson: it's a book that God you just wish existed, and of course the funny thing is that the movie labyrinth was an adaptation of a book, but it was a children's book like a picture book.
David Peterson: It took some leaps to get to the movie because this children's picture book and i'm trying to imagine how this would be appropriate for children.
David Peterson: But you know, a young girl named Sarah goes to the land of the goblins and in order to escape them she becomes their Queen and instructs them to dance until they die.
Jessie Sams: I mean, there are some fables though isn't there the.
Jessie Sams: Famous ballet that's based on a fable where it's like literally people are dancing until they die.
Jessie Sams: I can't think of it off top my head, but anyway.
David Peterson: that's all good.
Jessie Sams: it's good thanks how.
David Peterson: Was it.
David Peterson: Was it the ankle cracker.
Jessie Sams: Anyway, anyway.
Jessie Sams: You didn't have to add a syllable that would have been better.
David Peterson: I know well, I thought of the foot cracker but you know.
Jessie Sams: Just snow yeah.
Jessie Sams: So one thing about everything that we have said in this podcast like and I understand that everybody's interested in doing families are using existing worlds.
Jessie Sams: But everything that we've said, is totally applicable to somebody creating their own fantasy world in terms of things to think about and.
Jessie Sams: Especially with like, I know that some people are like why don't we have names yet for these things and it's like well actually naming practices are.
Jessie Sams: hard to settle on sometimes and that takes a lot of language creation to get up to that point and so like.
Jessie Sams: In terms of advice beyond like my piece of advice is don't go naming you know people in locations until you're really ready in the language for it if you're creating your own fantasy world.
Jessie Sams: But do you have any other advice just general off top of your head advice, beyond that, in terms of specifically to you know, making your world and languages that you're creating really work together well without shooting yourself in the foot.
David Peterson: You know the a lot of the advice that I can think of, is more general coddling advice.
David Peterson: Because like especially.
David Peterson: Well, maybe this, this will be applicable.
David Peterson: I really encourage for somebody that's that wants a fan Lang and wants to really sound good and be special really try to rein things in because one of the biggest problems with.
David Peterson: With you know, especially authors just creating something on the fly and not thinking about it is it's just it's way too expensive in terms of its phonology in terms of its grammatical structure and basically that causes a language to lose character.
David Peterson: You know it's just like.
David Peterson: it's like it's like a when you ask you hey what's the phonology of your language and they just hand you a chart of the IPA.
David Peterson: And it's like Okay, what can come at the end of the word anything.
David Peterson: Little anything like what about any consonant clusters any.
David Peterson: race, just like.
David Peterson: You know, and so like when you're you're going to be stuck with a bunch of words, and I really encourage you to try to find patterns and say so it's, not even to say like what you can do to really define what you can't do.
David Peterson: that's what's going to give it its character so try your best.
David Peterson: try your best to rein it in.
David Peterson: Because that'll help it feel like it'll help it feel cohesive like a language and it'll help it to feel special.
Jessie Sams: Everyone wants their language to feel special.
Jessie Sams: that's great Okay, so that is my full list of questions we're at the end, I believe you said I had four more minutes, I think I hit it right on the diet, maybe.
Jessie Sams: And so, do you have anything to add, since you always have something kitty to say at the end of every podcast we do.
David Peterson: Yes, I have many things, many things to share, but the truth is nothing that I say is going to be as powerful as what this little boy says.
David Peterson: isn't that right Roman isn't that right actually you want to maybe maybe we'll be able to hear this, do you want to see what happens when I tried to scratches billy.
Jessie Sams: I mean, really, I think.
Right.
Jessie Sams: Now biting.
Jessie Sams: I mean really David i'm starting to think that any scratches have been self inflicted because you know what he does.
David Peterson: And you still recruiting so mad.
David Peterson: So mad.
David Peterson: You shouldn't when he was sleeping people I know.
David Peterson: But its belly was so spiritual.
Jessie Sams: Anyway, anyway, so nothing to add, is what i'm getting from that other than here is why you have all the scratches on your arms because we're Roman is trying to sleep and you wake them up.
David Peterson: For a little boy.
Jessie Sams: that's.
Jessie Sams: Well, we hope you enjoyed, and we look forward to seeing you in the live streams and seeing you on discord been great watching all the very active conversations going on and.
Jessie Sams: Did you have something to add wait.
David Peterson: yeah, no, no, like this is kind of a new venue where there might be some of our patrons that like only listen to the podcast or maybe don't pay attention to other stuff we should actually mention the discord.
Jessie Sams: Oh yeah so Okay, so if you're a patron who primarily uses the podcast then, yes, we have a discord just for patrons now.
Jessie Sams: And if you link up your your patreon account with your discord account, so you need to do it on patreon if you link your discord account to it, then you will automatically be added at the.
Jessie Sams: tier where you belong.
Jessie Sams: into the server and you can join in with other conversations.
David Peterson: yeah and it's pretty active so that's cool.
Jessie Sams: Yes, it is.
Jessie Sams: So okay so that's a great thing to add any other last minute things before I do the official sound off.
David Peterson: um.
David Peterson: You know, there might be.
Jessie Sams: This is the best way to do a podcast to stop and silently stare at the camera.
David Peterson: i'm here oh i'll try to do something here we go.
Jessie Sams: Also, not necessarily effective unless you're just trying to do some sort of meditative soundscape.
Jessie Sams: pocket.
David Peterson: Okay, all right.
Jessie Sams: Well yeah.
Jessie Sams: Nothing in that case, everyone stay grammar and we'll see you around.